In this interview: Maori Kunigo, freelance copywriter and communications specialist

How can law firms, tax advisers and SMEs make the most of digital communication tools? What does modern marketing look like? And which investments are worthwhile, and which are unnecessary? Paul Liese discusses these issues with Maori Kunigo, a copywriter and communications specialist based in Hamburg.

Paul Liese: A very warm welcome! Today we’re broadcasting from a different studio. Our guest is Maori. We’d actually intended to go live six months ago.

Maori Kunigo: Yes, back when there was no coronavirus.

Paul Liese: And that’s why we’re in a different studio – so that we can maintain some physical distance. Would you like to introduce yourself briefly? Who are you? What do you do? Why are you here?

Maori Kunigo: I’d be delighted. My name is Maori Kunigo. I’m a freelance copywriter, freelance creative director and communications specialist. I’ve worked in various advertising agencies for 15 years and have been working as a freelancer for the past four years. And I’ve been working with you since February. You’re also a partner with whom I can say that I work not for, but with, hsp. Our collaboration has become just as close as a result.

Paul Liese: Yes, that’s also really important here in the team – that everyone contributes their areas of expertise and does what they do best. And last autumn, I realised that there was one area I hadn’t quite mastered and didn’t have the time to get to grips with: namely, drafting and writing texts that engage the reader and concisely convey what they need to know and why we want to communicate something. We were then put in touch via a mutual acquaintance. And then we said: „Let’s do it! Let’s get started!“

Maori Kunigo: Yes, the conversation went very smoothly. In fact, we were sitting right here. It’s hard to believe that we didn’t hire this sofa especially for today. In reality, the most important thing for both of us was that we were a good fit, both professionally and personally. I also think it’s a great strength from a business perspective to know exactly what you’re capable of and where to bring in a partner to work more efficiently and successfully. I believe that applies to all sectors – both mine and yours.

Paul Liese: We’re sitting here together today not just because we want to talk about our collaboration and partnership, but because we have other partners who are using our software and sharing insights on business matters – specifically, what’s happening with their clients. And we want to discuss what we can provide them with so that they can engage with their clients on specific topics in a more targeted way or with more feedback. Is there anything in particular where you’d say, „This is something you should definitely bear in mind“, or is there a whole range of information?

Maori Kunigo: It depends on who we are seeking to advise at any given time. Tax advisers, for example, are now relatively free to do almost anything in the way of advertising and marketing that the free market is permitted to do. That wasn’t the case until 1994. After that, there were a number of court rulings on the matter, and the guidelines were subsequently amended accordingly, which at least provides some guidance on where the boundaries lie. But realistically, it has to be said that many tax advisers who work on their own or who still work with a partner certainly do not run large-scale campaigns or put up billboard adverts or anything like that. That’s more likely to be done by the larger firms or groups of firms. And they have their own legal advisers and marketing agencies who know exactly what the boundaries are. If, for example, I were approached by a tax adviser working on their own, I would focus with them on what makes sense for them. That means, for him or her, communication is all about engaging with existing clients, because – as we all know – the best clients come through recommendations, and recommendations only come from clients. These are the ones that carry the most weight and are the most persuasive when it comes to making a case. If a mate says to me, „You’re a freelancer too, aren’t you? Why don’t you pop in to see so-and-so, the tax adviser? He’s always got the best suggestions and keeps helping me with my work, my tax return, my planning and my business success,“ then I’ll do just that. For a sole trader like me, that’s a huge part of the picture, because I don’t have a legal department or a management consultant; in most cases, I only have one adviser, and that’s the tax adviser – or just the mate. But the tax adviser plays an enormously important role in what I do. That means I’m all the more reliant on a good tax adviser. If I get the right advice there, that’s another client won. That’s why, when it comes to communication, it’s definitely important to be as close to the client as possible and to be more than just someone who carries on with „business as usual“. In other words, if a client comes to me and says, ‘Could you please prepare my annual accounts?’, I can fulfil that role as a tax adviser. Then I can draw up the annual accounts. But I can also act as an adviser if I spot areas where there’s room for improvement – think procedural documentation – or simply start by mapping out the current processes. You can do this on a small or large scale. Whether I’m working with a business or an individual makes no difference. If, as a client, I realise that the adviser is on board with me and is genuinely interested in my business and my success, then I’ll recommend them to others. So this step isn’t just about me selling a service to the client, but also about giving me the opportunity to attract further clients through satisfied clients. I tend to see this sort of thing more often with tax advisers.

Storytelling as a means of communication

Paul Liese: That’s actually classic storytelling, isn’t it? Telling stories about what others have experienced with me – in this case, as a consultant. That’s how we do things at hsp in some areas too: we don’t necessarily run expensive adverts and try to generate leads through clicks in various media, but rather focus primarily on delivering added value and telling stories that aren’t boring, but which show others that’s what you can experience with us.

Maori Kunigo: Yes, absolutely. I always emphasise – whether we’re talking about huge corporations like Telekom, small and medium-sized enterprises, or even start-up founders – that existing customers are almost more important than new ones, because these are the customers I’ve already won over. I’ve already convinced them. At some point, I invested a great deal of resources to win these customers over. And I don’t need to devote as many resources to retaining them. But I should still devote some. And it’s the same with clients. I’ve already won them over. Just think of all the effort I put in to bring that new client on board: They came to me, I established contact, I secured a contract – all of this, on both a large and small scale. And then there are corporations, medium-sized businesses and small business owners who say: „But I still need to win more new clients, win new clients…“ and neglect their existing clients. They say: „I’ve already got them on board. I’m not going to invest that much in them anymore.“ But that’s definitely the wrong approach. What we do here at hsp, for example, is invest heavily in our existing clients. Even if, at first glance, this seems to involve more expenditure and effort. When someone signs a contract, the money comes in, they’re contractually bound, and that’s that. And if we invest in anything, we don’t get any more money from that one person. But we gain trust; we gain insight. It’s through trusting partnerships, for example, that dialogue develops in the first place. This applies just as much to human resources management as it does to the company itself or to communication. Trust is a two-way street. If I have customers who trust me, they’ll come to me with genuine feedback rather than looking elsewhere. A relationship based on trust also ensures that you don’t walk away straight away if things aren’t going quite as well as they could or if mistakes are made somewhere; instead, you discuss these mistakes with the company you’re a customer of, because you know that they’ll take care of them.

Paul Liese: That is precisely what we try to communicate openly: that we actively ask our customers and partners who work with us for feedback on what we could do differently or better, for whatever reason. I think the latest proof that we are open to everything is the community we’ve had online for the past two weeks. There, our customers can exchange views amongst themselves about the software they use or their partnership with us. And there’s no secret about who the users of hsp software are. It’s an open structure. The reason we set up and launched this community was to take communication to a whole new level – rather than simply sending out a monthly newsletter and perhaps occasionally posting on social media or producing a new video, we want to actively engage in dialogue and communication with one another. There’s another point that’s personally very important to me: that communication should also be about speed. I myself sometimes find myself in a situation where I can’t reply quickly enough. Then the conversation gets put off by a day or two. Then something else comes up, as it did in the last two weeks when we finalised the Opti.Tax Release 20.2, which is now available. As a result, one thing or another gets left by the wayside. What do you think is more important? Perfectly polished communication, or ad hoc communication and quick replies?

Maori Kunigo: I’d like to break this down into two areas: the technical aspect and the aspect relating to attention. When I’m communicating legally sensitive matters, or things where, if I make a mistake, my clients could find themselves in enormous trouble, it’s like a sat-nav directing you in the middle of the night to a road where there’s actually a river.

Paul Liese: Then you go for a swim.

Maori Kunigo: Yes, exactly. There are times when I can communicate really quickly and don’t need to be perfect. But when it comes to crucial matters, such as figures or legal pitfalls, it’s not worth risking a mistake, because as a business I also have a responsibility towards my customers. As for the rise of social media in general: in the past, companies would send teams off to South Africa for a photo shoot and make a huge fuss, all so that an advert might eventually appear in a magazine. That’s still worthwhile – there are still brands that do it – but for most, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, it isn’t anymore. There are far more – and far more charming – ways to achieve good communication, not through investment and money, but rather through targeted communication based on good ideas.

Paul Liese: Where do you think communication is heading? In the past, we had the telephone and the fax – let’s leave the subject of letters out of it for now. What are the channels people should be using to communicate?

Maori Kunigo: My advice is always: don’t do what the authorities do. Of course, it always depends on the target audience. We’re very digital people – people who’ve grown up with the internet and want to get our hands on some new digital gadget every day. For us, the barrier to entry is very low. You can address us in a very progressive way and use the very latest technical possibilities without causing us any irritation. It tends to spark our curiosity instead. I’m from Gelsenkirchen. And if you want to know what real life is like, just take the S-Bahn or the underground in Gelsenkirchen and you’ll see that this digital stuff isn’t for everyone. You really have to think about who you’re addressing. My mum isn’t on Facebook, but my dad was – and he was 70. It’s no problem for that generation. In the US or Japan, it’s a completely different story. I reckon all the older people there are on Facebook. We’ll see more and more of them getting involved in social networking. But you do have to think carefully about whether you can reach these people via WhatsApp or mobile display ads or something like that.

Paul Liese: But it’s true that the way we communicate is changing. In the past, when I rang a partner, I wanted to speak to someone straight away so I could get my problem, my situation or my question off my chest. Nowadays, however, we often no longer want to put up with being put on hold and eventually being the fifth person to be called after a quarter of an hour; instead, we want to communicate in a different way. And that’s why, for example, these chat systems are becoming increasingly popular. We’ve noticed this ourselves. The chat client was first integrated into our website, and since the 20.1 release, it’s also been incorporated into our software, so you can chat with us directly from within the application. And if you compare the number of phone calls and chat enquiries in our support team, they’re now on a par. I can see that real-time communication has shifted from the phone to digital media. And I think this will become an increasingly common way of obtaining information or getting in touch.

Maori Kunigo: It’s just a matter of getting used to it. I had my first support chats with Amazon sometime ten or twelve years ago. On their website, it was already quite commonplace back then. It’s now 2020 and there are still plenty of people who’ve never used a support chat. I don’t think the problem is that it’s too complicated either. It’s just a matter of getting used to it and of communication. Many people still offer it as an additional option, when in fact it could be the main channel. If I ring DHL and try to trace a parcel over the phone, it can take me half a day, but if I just pop into the Facebook support chat, it takes a minute and I’ve sorted everything out. But many people don’t realise that. And what you’ve just rightly – and, more importantly, crucially – highlighted is the understanding of communication via such channels. Communication, advertising and marketing aren’t always about those colourful images out there; they’re also about how accessible and seamless the communication between yourself and the customer is. That’s also an opportunity to offer WhatsApp or a chat system, or a direct community where everyone can help one another or inspire each other on how to use things. It’s not always just about problems, after all. Perhaps someone has worked out a brilliant way to use a particular feature. That doesn’t do anyone any harm.

A focus on motivation rather than competition

Paul Liese: On the contrary, that actually helps everyone.

Maori Kunigo: Exactly. Competitive thinking is a different matter altogether.

Paul Liese: We don’t really have anything like that here either.

Maori Kunigo: Yes, I share that view with you. At hsp, the general approach is that we communicate with everyone. We don’t see competitors, we don’t see enemies, we don’t see opponents. We see market peers; we see other companies that inspire and spur us on, and they, in turn, see us as a company that spurs others on. It’s exactly the same in my industry. I’ve often met colleagues who have internalised this kind of competitive mindset. For example, people who wouldn’t pass on job enquiries even though they themselves were fully booked. Fortunately, that wasn’t the case with our mutual acquaintance. When I was still an employee, I found that there are also colleagues who tend to hold young people back because they’re afraid of being overtaken by them. And that’s a way of thinking that’s really dangerous – even for oneself. You don’t help people develop that way, but you end up holding yourself back too. I’ve always tried to bring everyone along with me, to inspire and encourage them. It pays off in the sense that we can always recommend each other.

Paul Liese: That is, in fact, exactly what we have been working on intensively for just over a year now. We already had partnerships in place before that, where our software was used as a white-label solution under a different brand. But we now also have new partnerships where we recognise that we aren’t experts in the field and there’s someone who’s much better at it and who brings their expertise to the platform. And as a result, everyone benefits from each other. I’ll be presenting the latest Opti.Tax release, version 20.2, in a livestream on Wednesday afternoon, and one of the topics we’ll be covering is tax compliance management systems. I’ll also be presenting and discussing this in detail with Andrea Treib in a separate livestream. The W+ST Group simply had the expertise on how to set up a tax compliance management system and which technical issues need to be taken into account, and they’ve contributed their know-how. And together, the platform is getting better. That’s why it’s not that hsp is better or W+ST is better; rather, we’re tackling this topic together. That’s how we operate in many other areas too. You know this only too well, because you’re always the one who gets to process and communicate the fact that we always take great pleasure in these partnerships.

Maori Kunigo: What do you say to people who ask you, „Why are you giving away services that you could charge for?“ Take ‘community’ as an example. We offer courses where others would charge a fee, package them as a subscription service, or offer them for an extra charge.

Paul Liese: Personally, it has always really annoyed me in the past that, whenever I wanted to learn something, I had to book a training course that couldn’t take place at the times I’d have liked. I couldn’t learn at my own pace. That’s why, here at our company, for example, every employee has access to LinkedIn Learning, so they can acquire knowledge there at the times they choose and when they want to. And I wanted the same for our platform, so that people can say: „Whenever I find myself in that situation, I’d like to learn more through e-learning videos in the community.“ Or if I’m at a law firm and have a new colleague who’s taking on the topic or needs to get involved, I’d either have to book a training course for them or simply say: „Here, the hsp Community – log in and have a look.“ That’s simply added value, and I much prefer to engage with my team, a law firm and a client in a real-life situation and create a Process documentation to write, which then and may, as a result, also serve as procedural documentation. That’s also much more interesting for us than spending every week at various training sessions with law firms saying: „Here’s the button, and it does that.“ That’s part of it too, yes, it’s important, but I think that in these digital times we’re living in, this sort of thing needs to be offered via e-learning videos.

Maori Kunigo: If we go back a bit in time, what made you decide to set up a team directly at hsp rather than commission an advertising agency?

Paul Liese: Well, you’ve got to know me by now. I come up with ideas at short notice that then need to be sorted out between yesterday, today and tomorrow, and I can’t manage that with an external agency. I simply lack the agility. I don’t have the chance to say: „I’ve got an idea. What do you think of it? What do you think?“, and then put it into practice together. If I have to explain my idea to a third party, who then passes it on to their team, and that team doesn’t communicate with me directly but always via an intermediary, something always gets lost along the way. It’s like the game „Chinese whispers“. What eventually comes back to me isn’t necessarily what I meant. I also notice within our own team that we still have rounds of revisions, even though we’ve worked together very closely and are well-rehearsed, but it still takes a while to get to the point where, for example, the autumn banner on our social media channels perfectly suits both your taste and mine and gets the message across. And that’s why, for me, having a dedicated team that focuses solely on this area is also a form of quality in communication.”.

Maori Kunigo: There are about 26 of us here, five of whom make up the design team. In terms of numbers, that’s already a huge proportion of the total workforce and significantly more than I’ve seen in other companies. There, it’s usually between zero and two or three people. Is it actually worth it? Or, if we think about our viewers for a moment, who does it benefit? Who stands to gain from setting up a team like this?

Paul Liese: It really just depends on what I want to communicate. If I just want to say, „I’m the law firm and you can find me on Google Business, perhaps in the Yellow Pages as well, etc. That’s enough for me,“ then I certainly don’t need it. But we do want to communicate digitally. We want to broadcast live streams. We want to share information in this way, rather than sending out newsletters with long PDF files that people have to read through from start to finish. A year ago, we broadcast our first live stream, which was incredibly bumpy. But it’s getting better and better because the team is learning. And then, in May, we started working with our own sound and visuals, producing our own intros – in other words, taking everything up a notch in terms of quality. Because through what I communicate and how I communicate, I rebuild trust. It’s important to me, it’s important to my team, and it’s definitely getting through. And the way I communicate always shows the other person – whether they’re already a customer or not – just how important the subject is to me. Whether you can actually quantify what the marketing team costs, with all the trimmings, and whether that is recouped in that form – I don’t think you can really compare the two. Because what we’re communicating here are emotions. Take a look at car adverts. It’s not about the engine or how much power it has, but about the emotions involved. The idea that you’re happy or successful when you own one. And for us, it’s about communicating that, through a partnership with us, we can work together to successfully tackle the specific issues we address.

Which communication channels are important?

Maori Kunigo: That’s precisely the advantage of digitalisation and the internet age – that we ourselves have the opportunity to use our own channels; that we can, for example, now go live on Facebook or YouTube and aren’t reliant on others to create a public platform for us. We create our own audience. And, of course, that’s only possible through communication. First and foremost: when a company is considering launching something like its own marketing, design or in-house agency department, it shouldn’t be asking, „What are we actually doing right now? How many people do we need for this?“, but rather: „What are my long-term plans? How do I envisage our communication strategy?“. Perhaps have a chat with external experts. Perhaps draw inspiration from other companies rather than brooding alone in a quiet corner. Take a look at what others in different sectors are doing. Don’t just stay within your own sector, stewing in your own little world; look at what you can adapt for your own sector. I’m not saying that every tax adviser needs a massive campaign or an amazing Facebook page. It’s more about this: stay in touch with your clients. Stay in touch with your clients. I can’t stress that enough. But when it comes to small or medium-sized businesses, it’s quite clear that you need to ask yourself: is it worth bringing in an agency? Or perhaps there are some brilliant talents right here in my town who’d be delighted if an ambitious local entrepreneur gave them a chance to express their creativity and get ahead, without having to venture out into the big, wide world of advertising. These are opportunities right on your doorstep. You should approach the issue with an open mind. But you really do need to ask yourself: where do I want to go in terms of communication?

Paul Liese: I think there’s one other thing that’s really important: you have to be aware that not everyone is the communicative type, or the sort of person who comes up with brilliant ideas about what to communicate and how to frame certain topics with clients. It might be a bit easier for you with me, as I have lots of ideas that I throw into the mix, which the team then develops, rejects or amends. But what do I do as an entrepreneur or a consultant who’d like to communicate but doesn’t know how?

Maori Kunigo: Then you look for a specialist. It’s worth saying that you need a bit of luck here, but when you’re looking for a specialist, you shouldn’t be looking for a superhuman or a jack-of-all-trades, but someone who suits me and understands me. Someone with whom I can, for example, simply have a good chat. If I can tell that I can have a good exchange with them, then they’ll understand me too. And I’m sure they’ll also find one or two ways for me to communicate where I don’t have to be the centre of attention, but where I can hand over some responsibility and know: ‘This works with them; things run smoothly with them.’ Take project management, for example. There are brilliant project managers out there who, in turn, have excellent networks. So if you don’t know where to start, my advice is to look on Xing or LinkedIn for freelance project managers who are experienced and seem approachable, and to get in touch with them. Just ask what a bit of communications consultancy costs. You don’t have to know everything yourself. It’s the same for you. If you’re not entirely sure, you bring in the experts. Nobody’s born a master. If you’re not quite sure where to start, ask the right people and you’ll get the answers. There are lovely people out there who’ll help you and who you can work well with.

Paul Liese: Yes, thank you very much. Half an hour has flown by again. Time always flies when the two of us are talking. Do you have a final message for our viewers – something you’d like to share with them?

Maori Kunigo: Hang in there! We’re all being forced to embrace digitalisation to some extent. We’re both, after all, the more progressive sort who are already embracing digital technology, but there are many who have now been forced into it. But once we’ve got through all this reasonably well, let’s not backtrack. Let’s keep at it. Let’s embrace these growing pains too. Let’s benefit from them, learn from them, and recognise and make the most of the advantages.

Paul Liese: Thank you very much for your tips and advice, and for the chat here on the sofa. We’ve now called it ‘Sofatalk’.

Maori Kunigo: Yes, let’s see when episode 2 of this comes out.

Paul Liese: Episode 2 is actually coming out next week. Carola and Raphael will be here on my sofa, talking about their experiences over the past few weeks in the field of process and procedural documentation, what they’ve learnt, and what advice they’d like to pass on to other law firms. And we’ll also be discussing the role that my team and I were able to play.
Thank you very much for watching or listening to the podcast, which is now available online. Stay well! See you soon!